Re: Ashamed of British govenment

What is this LUNACY!

Re: Ashamed of British govenment

Vasquez wrote:

What is this LUNACY!

No THIS IS SPARTA!!!

Re: Ashamed of British govenment

If you can't have a discussion with someone you disagree with without it turning into a foul mouthed abusive tirade maybe you should frequent a forum that will tolerate that sort of attitude.
I hear /b are always recruiting.

Re: Ashamed of British govenment

swollenguy wrote:
Vasquez wrote:

Capitalism is just like communism except the oppressors, rather than a dictator are the corporations and elites. It is as you will invisible communism.

Here in the US one side likes to throw out the word capitalism the other socialism like they’re dirty names. But the real problem is just plain and simple: people. Most people have a progressive nature. But the only way not to live in a structured society dependent on other people is if you’re up for going solo out into the woods and there making your own tools, clothing, and cultivating your own food. Otherwise no matter where you live, even if it’s in a tribe deep in the Amazon, there will be people that believe they deserve more: some undeservingly and some rightfully so, and there will be people on the bottom of the barrel: again some undeservingly and some rightfully so.

Remember when you hear your favorite punk rock band singing about how capitalism sucks, that the clothes the bands wearing, the microphone their singing into, and technology that allows their music to be recorded and distributed, was all made possible by capitalism. Now does that mean their gripe is wrong, no. it just means things are not that easy. The only thing easy is pointing blame. 

If you’re going get caught up in politics don’t get too white and black, don’t be afraid to see the good and bad in both sides and best try not to see sides at all. We have a saying here when it comes to elections: vote for the least worst.

Although capitalism is probably the most efficiently functioning system this world has seen, it is still a flawed system. Vasquez's statement is correct and there is nothing wrong with pointing out such flaws. Capitalism breeds greed and corruption, and as such i do not believe it is a people problem. I'm not ragging on capitalism for the sake of it, I'd just like to see it improved.  I think people fail to realise that capitalism won't last forever...

Last edited by Ms45 (2011-10-27 16:59:42)

Re: Ashamed of British govenment

Cap Howdy wrote:

If you can't have a discussion with someone you disagree with without it turning into a foul mouthed abusive tirade maybe you should frequent a forum that will tolerate that sort of attitude.
I hear /b are always recruiting.

haha yeah it's a shame because i really enjoy discussing politics. But people get too upset and emotional and just get abusive.. What's with that?

Re: Ashamed of British govenment

The original post, this whole thread, is abusive!
And a lie.

Some of us don't like that.  Whether a mod likes girlies or not.

Re: Ashamed of British govenment

Final warning.
Lose the attitude.

Re: Ashamed of British govenment

#1 Rule at HM- Respect.

That's all I'm saying.

Re: Ashamed of British govenment

Ms45 wrote:
swollenguy wrote:
Vasquez wrote:

Capitalism is just like communism except the oppressors, rather than a dictator are the corporations and elites. It is as you will invisible communism.

Here in the US one side likes to throw out the word capitalism the other socialism like they’re dirty names. But the real problem is just plain and simple: people. Most people have a progressive nature. But the only way not to live in a structured society dependent on other people is if you’re up for going solo out into the woods and there making your own tools, clothing, and cultivating your own food. Otherwise no matter where you live, even if it’s in a tribe deep in the Amazon, there will be people that believe they deserve more: some undeservingly and some rightfully so, and there will be people on the bottom of the barrel: again some undeservingly and some rightfully so.

Remember when you hear your favorite punk rock band singing about how capitalism sucks, that the clothes the bands wearing, the microphone their singing into, and technology that allows their music to be recorded and distributed, was all made possible by capitalism. Now does that mean their gripe is wrong, no. it just means things are not that easy. The only thing easy is pointing blame. 

If you’re going get caught up in politics don’t get too white and black, don’t be afraid to see the good and bad in both sides and best try not to see sides at all. We have a saying here when it comes to elections: vote for the least worst.

Although capitalism is probably the most efficiently functioning system this world has seen, it is still a flawed system. Vasquez's statement is correct and there is nothing wrong with pointing out such flaws. Capitalism breeds corruption, and as such i do not believe it is a people problem. I'm not ragging on capitalism for the sake of it, I'd just like to see it improved.  I think people fail to realise that capitalism won't last forever...

One of my points with people being the problem is in any system or situation people find a way to get what they want. Whither it’s creating fire in a cave to stay warm or justifying to themselves that they’ll get fat if they quit smoking.  Our biggest gift as humans is our ability to figure out consciously and unconsciously how to get what we want. That gives people of good intelligence and little ethics an upper hand in any society the word has seen so far.

As for V (who I admire his passion) he didn’t say it had some flaws. He’s using the word like people over here use the word socialism in a propaganda context, to spread fear or give a name to evil. That’s a shallow and dangerous way of thinking. Sure capitalism can be the face of evil when thinking about a child sweatshop, it can also be the face of good: like a poor migrant laborers kid that got go to college and give his kids a better life. Just saying we need to think deeper and not get into polarized propaganda talk or we risk going too far to one side.

Capitalism may have a nasty side and may not last forever, nothing does. But it’s what most of us have to work with and if something better comes along I am all ears, so far as I can tell no one has.

Re: Ashamed of British govenment

What i meant was that both Communism and Capitalism are both fatally flawed. In that in the end both systems serve only the powerful and elite while the rest us our ultimately slaves to their ideologies. In the same way communism restricts freedoms and forces conformity capitalism through its greedy and materialistic aspects makes us, normal people all blind slaves.
So i don't like both.

Re: Ashamed of British govenment

I have heard a new term, "Corporatism," recently.  I think this may be more appropriate to the conversation here- a condition where powerful (i.e. rich) companies can influence politics to their favor.  As opposed to 'capitalism' where everyone has the chance to run a business and do what they like to do.

It is a small, but I think important, difference.

Re: Ashamed of British govenment

I like that ^

Re: Ashamed of British govenment

There is a eerie similarity between Soviet propoganda and modern advertising.

Re: Ashamed of British govenment

swollenguy wrote:
Ms45 wrote:
swollenguy wrote:

Here in the US one side likes to throw out the word capitalism the other socialism like they’re dirty names. But the real problem is just plain and simple: people. Most people have a progressive nature. But the only way not to live in a structured society dependent on other people is if you’re up for going solo out into the woods and there making your own tools, clothing, and cultivating your own food. Otherwise no matter where you live, even if it’s in a tribe deep in the Amazon, there will be people that believe they deserve more: some undeservingly and some rightfully so, and there will be people on the bottom of the barrel: again some undeservingly and some rightfully so.

Remember when you hear your favorite punk rock band singing about how capitalism sucks, that the clothes the bands wearing, the microphone their singing into, and technology that allows their music to be recorded and distributed, was all made possible by capitalism. Now does that mean their gripe is wrong, no. it just means things are not that easy. The only thing easy is pointing blame. 

If you’re going get caught up in politics don’t get too white and black, don’t be afraid to see the good and bad in both sides and best try not to see sides at all. We have a saying here when it comes to elections: vote for the least worst.

Although capitalism is probably the most efficiently functioning system this world has seen, it is still a flawed system. Vasquez's statement is correct and there is nothing wrong with pointing out such flaws. Capitalism breeds corruption, and as such i do not believe it is a people problem. I'm not ragging on capitalism for the sake of it, I'd just like to see it improved.  I think people fail to realise that capitalism won't last forever...

One of my points with people being the problem is in any system or situation people find a way to get what they want. Whither it’s creating fire in a cave to stay warm or justifying to themselves that they’ll get fat if they quit smoking.  Our biggest gift as humans is our ability to figure out consciously and unconsciously how to get what we want. That gives people of good intelligence and little ethics an upper hand in any society the word has seen so far.

As for V (who I admire his passion) he didn’t say it had some flaws. He’s using the word like people over here use the word socialism in a propaganda context, to spread fear or give a name to evil. That’s a shallow and dangerous way of thinking. Sure capitalism can be the face of evil when thinking about a child sweatshop, it can also be the face of good: like a poor migrant laborers kid that got go to college and give his kids a better life. Just saying we need to think deeper and not get into polarized propaganda talk or we risk going too far to one side.

Capitalism may have a nasty side and may not last forever, nothing does. But it’s what most of us have to work with and if something better comes along I am all ears, so far as I can tell no one has.

Well the first step in fixing something is identifying it's faults...

Sure Capitalism has an upside, but so do most systems of government. It just depends where you are positioned. The means to which capitalism maintains order in society is highly manipulative, and i guess this is what creates the illusion that the system actually works. People are unaware that the values that are prescribed to them, are primarily intact to serve the system (and the upper class) before anything else. I don't think this is an ideal way to live. Perhaps I'm an idealist, but being content or complacent is not progressive.

Re: Ashamed of British govenment

Old saying-
"May you live in interesting times."

Re: Ashamed of British govenment

azathoth wrote:

I have heard a new term, "Corporatism," recently.  I think this may be more appropriate to the conversation here- a condition where powerful (i.e. rich) companies can influence politics to their favor.  As opposed to 'capitalism' where everyone has the chance to run a business and do what they like to do.

It is a small, but I think important, difference.

Well 'corporatism' is a result of capitalism. The foundation of capitalism is having capital. Society is constructed to value that capital over everything else. This leads to corruption of power, and hence 'corporatism'.

Re: Ashamed of British govenment

^^
To be fair, people need something, i.e. capital, to do something.  Can't make shoes out of happy thoughts and good intentions. 

Taking something that is useful and taking it to an extreme generally leads to bad consequences.  In the US, the division of powers (executive, legislative, and legal) were supposed to inhibit this type of excess.  (I'm not very conversant with other countries' setup).  But for the US- whoops!  sad

Re: Ashamed of British govenment

Firstly, please calm down. There's no need for anybody to get angry with each other about this; yes we hold vastly opposing views but there's no need to be hostile or abusive towards me.

I didn't avoid what a race is, I was simply pointing to the fact that you seem to have a problem with identifying the travelling community with their own race. Which is, by the way, nicely defined here:
The Irish Traveller community has been defined as “a community of people….who are identified (by themselves and others) as people with a shared history, cultures and traditions. This includes those Travellers who live in ‘settled’ accommodation.

The whole point of this thread was to spotlight the appalling way these people were being treated, not to try and thrash out what defines a race and whether or not the people at Dale Farm are gypsies in a traditional sense or not. My point about their race was that if this was any other group or people or community, the violence and barbarism used by the police simply wouldn't have been tolerated in this day and age. I happen to believe that people should be treated fairly and not have violence used upon them by authority figures, no matter if they are a white conservative, black, gypsy, gay or anything else. I don't think it is called for. Those are my personal beliefs, and I created this thread to promote discussion; isn't that why we are here on this site in the first place?

I can assure you my socialist views (or "fake liberal Lefty sympathies", as you may refer to them) are in fact not false or fake in any way. I'm interested to find out why you think they are? I still don't think bringing Islam into the conversation was appropriate or relevant.
I only used the IRA as an example because there was a lot of turmoil in Ireland. I don't think we can tell people to "go home" just because we don't like them, no matter where they have come from. Those people have been here for decades and this is their home.
I didn't once say the law is stupid, I can't fathom where you are getting that from or actually which law you are talking about?

And they aren't trespassing.

Who exactly was victimised by allowing them to live there?

Re: Ashamed of British govenment

azathoth wrote:

^^
To be fair, people need something, i.e. capital, to do something.  Can't make shoes out of happy thoughts and good intentions. 

Taking something that is useful and taking it to an extreme generally leads to bad consequences.  In the US, the division of powers (executive, legislative, and legal) were supposed to inhibit this type of excess.  (I'm not very conversant with other countries' setup).  But for the US- whoops!  sad

You are right. The most positive aspect of capitalism is that it creates competitive drive, which leads to an increased rate of technological progress. I think that is fantastic. But what I'm trying to suggest is that there is surely an alternative to capitalism, which would see its flaws straightened out while also maintaining the positive aspects. Perhaps a capitalist-socialist hybrid?

Re: Ashamed of British govenment

Ms45 wrote:
swollenguy wrote:
Ms45 wrote:

Although capitalism is probably the most efficiently functioning system this world has seen, it is still a flawed system. Vasquez's statement is correct and there is nothing wrong with pointing out such flaws. Capitalism breeds corruption, and as such i do not believe it is a people problem. I'm not ragging on capitalism for the sake of it, I'd just like to see it improved.  I think people fail to realise that capitalism won't last forever...

One of my points with people being the problem is in any system or situation people find a way to get what they want. Whither it’s creating fire in a cave to stay warm or justifying to themselves that they’ll get fat if they quit smoking.  Our biggest gift as humans is our ability to figure out consciously and unconsciously how to get what we want. That gives people of good intelligence and little ethics an upper hand in any society the word has seen so far.

As for V (who I admire his passion) he didn’t say it had some flaws. He’s using the word like people over here use the word socialism in a propaganda context, to spread fear or give a name to evil. That’s a shallow and dangerous way of thinking. Sure capitalism can be the face of evil when thinking about a child sweatshop, it can also be the face of good: like a poor migrant laborers kid that got go to college and give his kids a better life. Just saying we need to think deeper and not get into polarized propaganda talk or we risk going too far to one side.

Capitalism may have a nasty side and may not last forever, nothing does. But it’s what most of us have to work with and if something better comes along I am all ears, so far as I can tell no one has.

Well the first step in fixing something is identifying it's faults...

Sure Capitalism has an upside, but so do most systems of government. It just depends where you are positioned. The means to which capitalism maintains order in society is highly manipulative, and i guess this is what creates the illusion that the system actually works. People are unaware that the values that are prescribed to them, are primarily intact to serve the system (and the upper class) before anything else. I don't think this is an ideal way to live. Perhaps I'm an idealist, but being content or complacent is not progressive.

Pointing out faults in something and bringing no solutions to the table serves no purpose. It why the occupy Wall Street people are not getting as much respect as they could have. Also sorry to sound glass half empty but it was those same hippies that were yelling “give it to the man” in 69 that are share holders and members of the board in those companies you hate now. But I stray.  Typically being able to hate the system is a luxury of someone that doesn’t have to work in a sweatshop or to the less extreme just feed their family.

No matter where you go you’re somewhere. No matter the revolution there’s always a new system.

Re: Ashamed of British govenment

^^
Heck, Ms, if you could figure that out there would be history books written about you forever.  That would be equivalent to Asimov's psychohistory.

Alas, the more I learn, the more I know that I don't know enough.

Re: Ashamed of British govenment

haha that would be a mind boggling task..

Re: Ashamed of British govenment

HM.ca- come for the horror, stay for the socio-econo-political discussions!  lol

Last edited by azathoth (2011-10-27 19:24:23)

Re: Ashamed of British govenment

How I miss getting into intelligent political debates on HM....

rabble, rabble, rabble, rabble, rabble, rabble, rabble, rabble, rabble!!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fEjJ4Ecy9Q

Re: Ashamed of British govenment

Don't tell me to do anything HorrorQueen.

And I guess you forgot writing this

it bollocks all about planning permission.

Of course it is!  So plonk your 'travelling' ass on any illegal land you want!


And if I decide to live in a caravan i'll let your hated Government know i've changed race!


And the hard facts are you don't care about how people are treated unless it suits your Hate England, Hate the English (even if you are one..The Left love self-loathing) Hate the eeeevil West agenda.

That's why people like you will blather on about anti-Semitisim while standing next to Palestinian mobs holding up Swastikas and 'Islam, will finish what Hitler started' signs...as seen in the Gaza demonstrations.

That's why people like you blather on about the rights of Gays until Islam (by far the largest oppressor and murderer of Gay people around the world goes) and it's rights are involved.

Which is why counterfeit 'liberals' like you start fucking threads about 'trespassers moved off the land they were trespassing on' (FACT) and consider yourself so achingly liberal (that they slumped their tinker arses on an English town is even better) but your wont start threads about actual victims and actual crimes being commited against them...if the perpetrators are those you support!

Which is why we have this bullshit thread and not this one:

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/eu … 94140.html

"Seventh man faces slavery charges on travellers’ site"


And why no threads about this:


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cr … l%EF%BB%BF

"Homophobia exacts a chilling price as hate crimes climb"

A growth in more extremist religious views has also contributed to the increase in attacks.
A homophobic campaign, launched by extremist Muslims in east London earlier this year, featured stickers declaring the area a "gay-free zone" and that Allah would be "severe in punishment".


No caring threads there.  Because the utterly illiberal that the modern British Left defends, and then have the nerve to call yourselves liberal, is the one at fault.

Travellers keeping slaves?  Not bothered.
Travellers moved from land they were never meant to be on?  BIG THREAD TIME.

I mock your hypocrisy.