Re: The Walking Dead, Season 4

Watched the newest ep earlier today. 

SPOILER

So what Carol did was both a mercy killing and a pre-emptive killing; a mercy killing because Karen and the other guy were suffering and choking on their own blood, a pre-emptive killing in that she wanted to prevent the spread of the mutant flu.  I can understand that.  But I can also understand Rick's stance that killing them was the wrong call, because there was a chance Karen and the other could have been saved and it wasn't Carol's call to make. 

What Carol did do is a lot what like Shane wanted to do in season 2, to kill Randall rather than risk Randall finding his own people and leading them back to the farm and leaving the entire group at risk.  But If Rick wasn't going to bend on that, he most definitely would not have bent on killing Karen and the other sick person. 

So while what Carol did made sense -- in the same kind of way what Shane wanted to do made sense -- she had to go.  I'm totally with Rick on that one.

Yeah, Daryl's gonna be pissed.  But not near as pissed as Tyreese when he finds out that Rick let the person who killed his girlfriend go.

END SPOILER

As interesting as the new season has been, though, I feel like there's something missing so far this year.  Namely, a primary villain.  Seasons 1 and 2 had Shane.  Season 3 had The Governor.  But here we are now in season 4, on our way to the fifth episode, and still no primary villain.  That's not good...

Re: The Walking Dead, Season 4

^ As usual we are at odds.

Re: The Walking Dead, Season 4

Big surprise, I know. lol

Re: The Walking Dead, Season 4

Possum - What's your differing opinion?

SPOILER

Well, Lon brought something up that I wondered about.  Will Rick go back and be totally honest with everything?  I was thinking he may go back, and suggest Carol went missing, or maybe even outright lie and say she was killed.  Though, that could come back and haunt him.  I just don't see how Tyreese will let that go if Rick tells the truth, though, maybe that will create the new villain.  If Rick did tell the truth, it would be interesting to see how Daryl handles it.  Common opinion is he'd be pissed, and I don't disagree, but at the same time, doesn't seem like he would support what she did either.

One thing that happened in the last episode I thought was kind of weak.  If I understood this right...the first group goes out.  They are the fighters, more or less.  They are going cuz it is such a dangerous mission, and these are the best to do that.  Then, they don't come back right away, so who goes to look for the tough group right away?  Rick and Carol?  Seems like since it was so dangerous there could have been someone better to go.  Though, so many are sick I guess.  Or was that just Rick's way of getting rid of Carol?

END SPOILER

Re: The Walking Dead, Season 4

K

SPOILER
Rick committed tactical suicide by getting rid of Carol.  She has acquired medical skills, she no longer has a family and as such can make logical decisions related to group's survival without the bias of putting your own family first, she is well liked, she was teaching the children necessary survival skills, she was the surrogate mother of the two girls, etc.  Rick is now officially a eunuch!

END SPOILER

Re: The Walking Dead, Season 4

Spoilers ahead: Just caught up with season 4 today. I'm digging it so far, but it doesn't seem to have much direction, other than the flu. I find it strange that these people wouldn't sleep with their cells closed. Even if you think you're safe, you know that anyone can turn if the die, and there is lots of older members amongst their group. I feel Carol has been reckless, and it may have been necessary to let her go like he did to appease the mob as such, but I agree it is a huge loss. I think Rick doesn't appreciate that she had to take on more responsability while Rick was useless. We shall see what is in store for group this season.

Last edited by Theli (2013-11-04 23:26:34)

Re: The Walking Dead, Season 4

The main point against what you wrote Possum...and this is just for the sake of convo...

SPOILER

What are your thoughts on this then, should Rick have done nothing?  Either told the group it was Carol, or just pretended he couldn't figure out who did it?  If he told, Tyreese would have flipped and probably went after Carol.  Others may have too.  If he pretended he didn't know who did it, Tyreese may still have flipped after a while.  I just don't see a scenario where Carol can remain with the group as is.  I think Rick did what he did, not so much cuz he had issue with what Carol did (which he did of course), but for the cohesiveness of the group.

END SPOILER

Re: The Walking Dead, Season 4

Saw only 3 episodes so far, need to catch up definitely. And you guys have very interesting views, enjoyable to read. So damn different this season though. Ok, downloading them now so I'll be able to voice my thoughts in Black Color. lol

Re: The Walking Dead, Season 4

Punk you better not be reading the spoilers before you've seen the show!  mad

Re: The Walking Dead, Season 4

floridapossum wrote:

K

SPOILER
Rick committed tactical suicide by getting rid of Carol.  She has acquired medical skills, she no longer has a family and as such can make logical decisions related to group's survival without the bias of putting your own family first, she is well liked, she was teaching the children necessary survival skills, she was the surrogate mother of the two girls, etc.  Rick is now officially a eunuch!

END SPOILER

Left lick and drag below...

I think it was hard for him to get rid of her, though.  I think it was another Shane-like instance where Rick realized no matter how much he personally loves this person, he can't have that kind of wild card in the group.  I think when he took her out with him, it wasn't so much about supplies as him just wanting to take her somewhere there was no chance their conversation could be heard; the last thing he'd want is to discuss this at the prison, where you never know someone may be listening. 

Furthermore I think seeing her in action, seeing her fix the dude's dislocated shoulder and what-not, seeing that she is now fully capable of taking care of herself, that she can fight, etc. made the decision easier for him.  And all her talk about how strong she is now, as well.  So yeah, in his heart of hearts he didn't WANT to have give her boot; this is Carol, they've been through so much together, all that.  But he said himself, knowing she's willing to do something like what she did, what if it was just him, his kids and Carol?  What if Carl or li'l ass-kicker got sick?  Would she kill them, too?

I think that like with most of his decisions, Rick had to make a choice that he was going to hate himself for, but which nevertheless needed to be made.  We know that Rick is, above all, an honorable man, and a conscionable man, and he wouldn't make a decision like this on the fly. 

But with that said, I seriously doubt this is the last we'll be seeing of Carol.

END SPOILER

Re: The Walking Dead, Season 4

K
SPOILER   The last thing Andrea said was no one can make it on their own anymore, and Daryl said, "Never could".  No one can make it on their own and Rick could have been sending Carol to her death.  Also as to how to handle it, Rick said that he wasn't going to make decisions for the group anymore, so why did he decide to do this all of a sudden.  The logical and in my view wisest tact to have taken would to have been to discuss this with some of the originals and come to a collective decision.  I'm sure Hershel, Daryl, Maggie and Glen would have liked to have had some say so in Carols fate.  They can't afford to lose any valuable member or skills.  Rick killed Shane because Shane was going to kill him, not because he had some epiphany about Shane not being good for the group.  I don't think Rick would have ever voluntarily plotted to kill Shane.  I think Rick has lost his nerve to some extent.  He doesn't want to rock the boat with his new life of farming and maintaining the prison.  His first priority is not group safety but trying to reverse some of the adverse effects on Carl.  He's lost his focus, and when Carl finds out what he did, well that will be interesting

END SPOILER

Re: The Walking Dead, Season 4

You know the drill...

I agree, Rick has lost his nerve, but while he did say he's not making decisions for the group anymore, he did say that even if it was just him, Carl and Judith, he wouldn't want Carol back at the prison either.  So he made the decision to protect what's his; that it is also for what he would consider the best of the group is just a bonus. 

But when you think about it, you can't really hold Rick to having said he wasn't make group decisions anymore.  Especially since Carol's act of murder was what SHE thought was for the best of the group.  Besides, she called Rick out earlier in the episode, told him he can't just be a farmer, he's going to have to get back to leading and calling shots again.  So really, Carol got exactly what she asked for.

And personally, had it been me, though it may well have been somewhat of a strategic suicide, if it means the safety and security of dozens of people I'm sworn to protect, I'd have gotten rid of Carol, too.  They may be friends, they may have been through a lot together, but she murdered two people.  Plain and simple.  Reasons are beside the point; she never consulted the group's leader, she didn't tell anyone she was going to be doing it before she did it, she didn't tell anyone she did it after she did it.  In fact if Rick hadn't asked her point blank, I doubt she ever would have said a word about it.  The mystery would have appeared unsolved to the group, Rick would have looked like a weak leader for not solving the murder, dissension would have grown, sides would have formed and before long, everything's out of control.  Rick did what he had to do whether he liked it or not, and whether Carol did it for the right reasons or not, she still had to go.

Side-note -- I love that there's a show for horror fans which can instigate this kind of detailed discussion.  We as an audience haven't had something like that since The X-Files. lol

END

Re: The Walking Dead, Season 4

I agree with you both.
You both make valid points.

Re: The Walking Dead, Season 4

SPOILER:

I agree with Lon 100%. I agree with Rick's decision and while Daryl is going to be pissed, I don't think he could have protected Carol from Tyreese without someone dying in that struggle and we saw what Ty could do when he was fighting both Rick and Daryl near the bodies.

I really wish that Rick had asked her, "What if that was Carl or Lizzie or Mika? Would you have killed them to protect the group?" And when she told him he'd killed one of their group, it irritated me because Shane was trying to kill Rick and there was slew of issues besides that. Carol killed Karen and David while they were separated from the group in death row and were no threat to anyone at the time she killed them.

I don't think Rick will lie to the group- with Carol still alive that could come back to bite him. Tyreese will lose it for him letting Carol go, and Daryl will not take it well, but I think Rick will be honest and give his reasons.

As a side note: I still think there's more to the killing of Karen and David. I really just don't think it was all her in that action.

END SPOILER

Re: The Walking Dead, Season 4

Spoiler   Lon you made my point for me.  Rick's perception of the situation has become blurred,  now he sees what is best for him, as what is best for the group.  Carol brought valuable survival skills to the table, one could also perceive her staying, as what is best for the group.  The point is, others who have just as much vested interest in the "group" get no vote in the decision.  We're back to the Ricktatorship but not necessarily with a clear focus. Not to mention, other than teaching the children survival skills, and dispatching the flu infected people, Carol never defied Rick.  I can't say if in the end, Carol leaving might not be the best thing.  But I do not support Rick doing it without the support of the group.

Re: The Walking Dead, Season 4

Spoiler

I don't think I did make your vote for you, Pammy.    Yeah, Rick made a call.  But I think it was far more about the safety of his family than the safety of the group.  He even told Carol so. 

I liken him making this call to someone driving down the road at night and swerving to miss a deer.  Their primary thought is they don't want the deer to crash through the windshield and crush their face to pulp.  That they also happen to be saving the deer's life is a good thing, sure, but that ain't the reason they jerked the wheel.

That's how I see Rick calling this.  I think Rick is the type of person who, even if he weren't the leader of the group, if he was only the lowest man on the totem pole, he'd step up and force Carol out if he felt she was a hazard to his family's safety.  So I don't think his call was really anything at all about the group, or him stepping back up as The Rick-tator.

End

Re: The Walking Dead, Season 4

^^^
Hahaha I really don't understand why you put color=black on each paragraph man. Enlighten me up. lol

But yeah very intersting points indeed...

Re: The Walking Dead, Season 4

SPOILER

My point!  He's making decisions that affect the group but not with the group's best interest at heart.

Last edited by floridapossum (2013-11-06 00:03:02)

Re: The Walking Dead, Season 4

Punk -- just to be safe.  I don't want to give anyone a reason to throw a hissy fit because some pube hair-sized crumb of possible information has been spoiled for them, so I just black it all out. smile

Re: The Walking Dead, Season 4

I know but what I mean is why not open color=black Pararagraph Paragraph Paragraph Paragraph close color=black instead of doing like you do now, open color=black Paragraph close color=black open color=black Paragraph close color=black open color=black Paragraph close color=black open color=black Paragraph close color=black. Seems like a damn waste of time. tongue

Melissa McBride about Carol, might interest you...

http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/11/03/walki … ide-carol/

Re: The Walking Dead, Season 4

Oh, I see what you mean.  No, I only put the tag at the beginning of my post and at the very end.  It's the site itself which adds the tag to the beginning and end of every paragraph after posting.

Re: The Walking Dead, Season 4

Ohhh ok. That's weird.

I couldn't see how someone so wise would do that really. lol

Re: The Walking Dead, Season 4

Wise as I am, I still put my pants on one leg at a time like everyone else.  Though unlike everyone else, I have three legs.

Think about it...

big_smile

Re: The Walking Dead, Season 4

^^^
MWAHAHAHA I'm sure it takes you more time to put your pants on the middle one than the two others. lol

Re: The Walking Dead, Season 4

Okay...

SPOILER

First, I'm a little disappointed that Daryl and Tyreese don't know about Carol, though I understand how it couldn't have fit into this episode. Second, I thought this was a good episode- Carl and Rick taking down that horde of walkers, and the scene in the sick block was good as well.

And I am soooo happy the Governor has finally shown himself! I hope that means things are going to get REALLY good now.

END SPOILER

All in all another good ep. Tense and such. But I do hope things move along faster now.